Engaging with Wine Expert, Melissa Smith

One of the most unexpected but fulfilling roles I've taken on in my career is as an expert witness. I was thrilled to be invited onto the Round Table Group Podcast recently to talk about my role as an expert in the wine sector.

June 18, 2026

In this episode . . . 

A wine collection can look like a hobby until it lands in a divorce, an estate fight, or a federal case. Then every bottle needs a defensible value, a paper trail, and an explanation that makes sense to people who have never read a wine list in their lives. We sit down with Melissa Smith, founder of Enotrias Elite Sommelier Services, to talk about wine collection appraisal, expert witness testimony, and the real-world mechanics of treating wine as a legal asset.

Melissa walks us through how she went from fine dining to becoming the person attorneys call when inventories, valuations, and credibility matter. We dig into what she now asks on the first phone call, what she deliberately holds back, and why scope and boundaries protect both the expert and the client. We also get specific about expert witness contracts, a simple rate structure, and why a nonrefundable retainer can be the difference between a clean engagement and months of chaos.

Note: Transcript has been lightly edited for clarity

Host: Noah Bolmer, Round Table Group

Guest:  Melissa Smith, Founder, Enotrias Elite Sommelier Services

Noah Bolmer: Welcome to Engaging Experts. I’m your host, Noah Bolmer. Today’s guest is Melissa Smith, founder of Enotrias Elite Sommelier Services. Ms. Smith is a writer, speaker, and educator specializing in wine collection appraisals. Ms. Smith, thank you for joining me today on Engaging Experts.

Melissa Smith: Thank you for having me.

Noah Bolmer: Your background is in fine dining and wine pairing. How did you first become involved in expert witnessing?

Melissa Smith: I was a fine dining chef for a while. I became a private chef, and that’s when I decided I’d rather get paid to drink for a living. I transitioned to front of the house, went through the Court of Master Sommeliers for my certification, and started working at restaurants. Then I ended up at the largest wine spirits retailer in the country called KL Wine Merchants in Silicon Valley and was one of the buyers there. We would get calls for people needing inventories and valuations for different legal purposes. I ended up having to argue the lack of evaluation of a particular collection for a divorce. I was doing that and ended up telling my best friends who were also my attorneys about that experience and they said, “You should turn this into a CLE, a continuing education course for attorneys.” I did and I became the first and only provider of an extended education for attorneys on the valuation of wine collections primarily for family law, trust, and state attorneys.

On top of being a wine appraiser, I started specializing in the legal aspect of wine as an asset. I would often get calls similar to this one, where I would divulge everything, I knew, why the other side wouldn’t win, and why we would. They would take that phone call, call their client or the opposing counsel, tell them what I said, and then I would never get hired to be the expert. They would settle. I learned along the way to keep my mouth shut and only give them the bare minimum. That turned into mini phone calls that would end after a five-ten-minute conversation, I would never get my hopes up about them. That included a call that I got standing in Whole Foods. They said, “We’re interested in working with you. What are your rates?” Blah, blah, blah. I gave them the information, not expecting to hear back. They did call back. My first official client was the Department of Justice, and it was in the Fat Leonard trial. I was thrown immediately into the deep end, and I studied as much as I possibly could with what was available at the time. That started my paid position as an expert witness.

Noah Bolmer: I definitely want to hear about the Fat Leonard trial, but first I want to ask you what those questions are now that you’ve done this for a while. What questions do you like to ask? What questions do you expect to be asked? What do you hold back when you’re in the initial phone call?

Melissa Smith: I like to know the scope and get as much information as I can from them. I let the clients do the speaking. Sometimes, I’ll be Googling as they’re speaking, but I’ve tried to set up boundaries about not diving too deep into it. I am very aware- I deal with a lot of attorneys for different purposes, [where] the clock is ticking for me as an expert witness, for them, and their legal fees. So, I am great with a five to ten-minute conversation. Beyond that, I want to make sure that I’m being paid, the retainer has been sent, and we’re all in agreement about what services I will be providing.

Noah Bolmer: When you’re developing those agreements, are you starting out with your own contract or do you receive something from the attorney? How do you decide what terms of the contract you’re going to have? Do you typically have a non-refundable retainer in your agreements?

Melissa Smith: All great questions. I’ve been learning as I go. I’m comfortable with where I am now. [Many] people have varying rates for varying things. I have one set rate that I’m comfortable with for the moment that does everything from research to deposition. Travel time and trial time. That’s all one rate for me. It’s a take it or leave it, but I don’t have the bandwidth to be counting minutes, different rates, and whatnot. I do have a non-refundable retainer. It’s typically five or 10 hours, depending on the client and their needs. The only negotiation that I entertain is how many hours of a retainer [they must] pay up front. I have that all set up. I’d created one at the beginning, just as I had with my contract for my business, doing wine appraisals. I created it with the help of my attorney friends. Then through trial, error, and difficult clients, I have to tweak it every time with the attorneys. It’s more straightforward for expert witness retainers and contracts.

Noah Bolmer: I want to get into this. You were involved in an extremely famous trial. Can you set this up for our listeners?

Melissa Smith: Leonard Francis was selling contracts to the U.S. Navy for [what] I call parking spots for our naval ships up and down the entire longitude from northern Japan through Australia. In doing so, he would be wining and dining top naval officials. I’m one of the only sommeliers that had a food and fine dining background. My ability to talk about the luxury ingredients, and the wines and spirits, used to bribe the top naval officials is why they brought me in. It was in front of a jury of civilians, so we had to make them understand what foie do gras was. The different grades of Wagyu, and the different wines. A $2,600 bottle of wine would be equated to a $775 glass of wine. I also had to do a lot of historic accounting, and forensic accounting, involving something like seven different countries and six different currencies. Flying down for secret meetings in San Diego for deposition preparation and things like that.

One of the incredibly interesting things that we learned, and the public may or may not know, was that the podcasters snuck a microphone into Leonard Francis’s home. He’d been living under DOJ surveillance for many years and recorded this entire podcast under their nose. Halfway through working with them, they just said, “Hey, Melissa, by the way, this is going to be coming out. You may as well listen to it. We’ve learned a lot from listening to it, and you will too.” That was interesting because I was also working under secrecy where I couldn’t tell my friends and family what I was working on. Then, this podcast comes out revealing more than any of us knew. That was a big one. I learned so much on that. I know you’ve got other questions, but this was one that’s going to be valuable in many ways. One, because it was my first real paying gig as an expert witness. I was going up- I get chills thinking about it. [Going] against six of the top gnarliest attorneys representing the six naval officials that weren’t going to back down and take a plea bargain. It was little old me facing off against these guys.

As intimidating as it was, other people had turned down the position, but I went in there. There’s a story of the buffalo in the storm. [It takes place] in the plain lands where cows see a storm coming and run away from it. They are so exhausted that they can die from exhaust exhaustion because of the fear. A buffalo will see a storm coming and they’ll face it head on. Sometimes they’ll even run into it to get through it faster. I thought, okay, I’m going to be the buffalo. I’m going to face these guys and show them who’s boss, which sounds ridiculous when you think of what I was being paid to testify about. The DOJ, the main one handling me said, “You want to educate them and impress them in a way where they’re going to want to hire you after for their future cases. It all clicked for me and I said, “Oh, okay.” So instead of being this badass woman in wine that was going to show all these men, I was just like, “Nope, okay. This is the classy Florida sommelier version of me that’s going to educate them in a way that’s not going to make them feel stupid but will help guide everyone in the room to understand these topics, ingredients, and wines better.”

Noah Bolmer: Tell me about the preparation for a case like that. Not only is it a big case, but it’s one of your first. You don’t necessarily know what to expect in a big proceeding like that. Tell me about how your attorney or trial team in a case like that prepared you for both the deposition and for the trial itself.

Melissa Smith: We did a lot of video interviews and a lot of phone calls, because anything that you write down has to be admitted. That was challenging for me. There were a lot of texts back and forth, like, “Can you jump on a call?” The person that was fired from the role before me turned into a massive nuisance. We found out that he was anonymously trying to take me down to Forbes and other publications that had written about me. That was an unexpected curveball that impacted the preparation and whatnot. [Much] of it was online research that I [had] to do. I read a book called The Expert Expert Witness. It was out of publication, but it was one of the only books at the time that I could read to prepare me. I highlight[ed] all of that. I didn’t charge for well over 50% of my time because I was still learning and I didn’t feel comfortable charging them to learn on their dime. If I were to do it again or if I were to mentor someone, I’d say, “No, charge them for everything.”

One of the most unexpected, hilarious things that will stick with me forever and constantly revisit is the TV show called The Good Wife. They had one called The Good Fight. The writing for it was so fantastic. There are so many law dramas out there, but they all about the relationships, the fashion, and all the stuff that isn’t relevant to what attorneys are doing in practice. The Good Fight and The Good Wife were- they used so much legal jargon that I was able to understand it. They had a main character that was an expert witness in ballistics or something like that and watching his performance and listening to it- I watched and rewatched the series at least three times to become comfortable with it versus a show like Suits, which was nothing like actual legal work. Every time I get ready for another fairly big trial, I’ll watch a few episodes to refresh my memory about the proceedings. Most of my cases end up settling and I don’t end up going on the witness stand. It’s still good information.

Noah Bolmer: One of my favorite questions to ask my guests is, do you have a pre-trial, pre-deposition, pre-big day routine that gets you in the right headspace? I’ve had guests who like to listen to heavy metal, drink a lot of coffee, or do yoga. Is there something that gets you ready to go?

Melissa Smith: I wish I listened to yoga. I wish I did yoga. I do kettlebells and listen to gangster rap. I’ve got a few songs that I feel and I do. Overall, my life is busy with all of my different projects and businesses, I stay in the zone where I’m like, get ready. I’m highly caffeinated, and sometimes I’ll have a glass of wine or tequila at the ready to calm my nerves. Overall, no, I’ll sometimes skim through my notes. This is one of those things where if you’re the expert in your industry you know it inside and out. For the most part, all the stuff should be committed to memory.

Noah Bolmer: Let’s talk about the role in general. You’ve been doing this for a while. What changes, if any, have you seen since you first started expert witnessing? Have you noticed a change with technology? Maybe video conferencing has changed things or anything logistically? What changes have you seen?

Melissa Smith: That’s a great question. I don’t know that I’ve seen this company that we’re doing the podcast for. That’s been amazing. SEEK is continuing to do online classes and things that are available. That’s interesting to me. As far as other changes in technologies, the ability to be able to appear via Zoom is amazing. I have some clients where they insist I have to be in public. There was one- I was an expert witness for a trial against one of the top gangster rappers in the world. At the time I was in Tunisia, and they wanted me to at least be on domestic ground to do my depositions and everything like that. That was fine because they had to pay for the flights and whatnot. Being able to live on the West Coast, the East Coast, or be in Europe, and be able to prepare, and appear on Zoom has been super helpful.

Noah Bolmer:  How is it different interacting with people on Zoom versus in person? Do you have to keep your gaze locked on the camera or present yourself differently? What are some of the differences?

Melissa Smith: I’m wearing pants for this, but I always try to appear professional no matter what I’m doing. That’s something that hasn’t changed.

Noah Bolmer:  Sure.

Melissa Smith:  Making sure that you’re muted when you’re supposed to be muted, the side texts, and different alerts you might be getting at the same time. Having to navigate those and make sure that they’re coming in when they’re supposed when they’re not supposed to. That’s all challenging to manage. Just managing timelines- there are times where opposing counsel only wants to pay for two hours of my time so it’s a firm cutoff with them versus when we’re managing the deposition for the other party. I had one go on so long I was able to pay my mortgage after five hours. You just you never know. You’ve got to be prepared.

Noah Bolmer:  Block out the time. Do you use any- are there any tools that work for you? Do you like to use Outlook Calendar, Trello or something like that? Is there anything that- any software that you like to use that helps you keep on time?

Melissa Smith: These are all great questions. I use Google Suite for everything, but I have to say, I am self-taught with all of this. I don’t have any peers. The one person that was a peer was the same one that tried to take me down, so, I don’t have people to ask. The closest I have, even as a wine appraiser, is taking fine art classes through the top appraiser’s associations. I don’t know any other expert witnesses.

Noah Bolmer:  It’s such a niche. Do you find yourself across the table frequently from the same people? Do you know everybody who is an expert wine appraiser slash sommelier slash fine dining chef?

Melissa Smith: I only know them because of when I look in the mirror. There are two gentlemen that are in the same realm and level of respect, but they don’t get a lot of expert witness work. There’s one woman that everybody knows that gets a fair amount of it. I don’t it’s- as a wine appraiser and an expert witness; I do not have people that I can turn to. The ones that I could turn to wanted me to send them my contracts, which I’m not going to do. It’s challenging, so I’m so thrilled that this podcast is available. I’m sure there are other expert witnesses in different industries that I’ll be able to learn from listening to this.

Noah Bolmer:  Let’s talk about different types of cases. Have you worked in a variety of different venues, such as different states, courts, criminal, et cetera? If so, how is it different as an expert witness working from one venue to the next?

Melissa Smith: Not a lot is different. Coordinating Zoom timings and schedules is a challenge. I’ve done- most of it gets to be remote, which is awesome. As far as different states, it’s generally major states on the East and West Coast, so not a big deal with that and the different realms. It’s more how much the attorney knows. If it’s a family law case or if it’s corporate litigation, or as I mentioned, there’s the DOJ, and then I’ve got one of the top gangster rappers in the industry and people involved with those businesses. All my clients come in with varying levels of understanding, education, and background, which is great because most of them are good at handling their experts and asking basic questions without making themselves sound ignorant. Wanting to be educated but then allowing me to shine and doing what I do.

Noah Bolmer:  Let’s talk about relationships. Expert witnessing is ultimately a series of relationships. How do you get started on the right foot and maintain that momentum during an engagement?

Melissa Smith: This is something I had to remind myself and the opposing counsel I was up against when he started complaining that he was in a deposition for it was over six hours at the time. We are being paid handsomely for our time. This is probably more than he’s made in weeks of work in one day. I remind myself that I’m getting paid more as an expert witness than I am for any other service I provide. Then, setting up boundaries because one of my last clients, I felt like I was at their beck and call with the text messages, the phone calls, and needing to jump on Zoom and review photos. I’m keeping track of all of that with my spreadsheet, timelines, and time tracking. It’s just saying if we’re going to talk about this, it needs to be more structured, or have an emergency rate-built in. When they need you to drop everything to take a call in a quiet location, away from friends and family. That’s the stuff that I’ve had to learn, setting up those boundaries.

Noah Bolmer:  Do you often get requests for those ultra condensed timelines?

Melissa Smith:  Sometimes I feel like patting myself on the back. That I’m the big guns. Sometimes, when it gets down to something and they’re like, “We need to really tilt this” then they’ll hire me at the last minute to help their case. That can happen sometimes. Otherwise, I feel like I get fairly good lead up time.

Noah Bolmer:  Let’s talk about other stories. We heard the big one. Are there any other stories that you can think of that either fundamentally changed something you do vis-a-vis expert witnessing or reinforced something that you were already doing?

Melissa Smith:  As with most cases, I could easily argue both sides. Sometimes, I’m hired by the counsel that I’m rooting for the other guy. There’s no way that I’m going let them know that. Whatever my opinion is or what I’m arguing in no way will sway it one way or another. Otherwise, I wouldn’t take it. It’s interesting and very important to get a holistic view of what’s going on. [Much] of that you don’t find out until you’re in the trial. There’s one that we ended up losing. I felt terrible years later when I found out that they’d lost their entire retirement, had nothing, and that we ended up having friends in common. They lost that one, which certainly wasn’t my fault, but when you have such a close relationship in the industry, a fairly small industry, it’s hard to not let those things affect you.

Noah Bolmer:  How about any red flags, bad experiences, or learning experiences?

Melissa Smith: Just making sure you’re on top of your retainer. That those are all being paid and that you’re firm in not performing more work until you’ve been made whole. The biggest thing is making sure- I’ll just say I learned that whatever is written down you can stand by. I had this come up in one of my other trials. We’re deposing the expert on the other side, and they had intercepted some text messages about me that were amazing but also humbling for them. At the end of the deposition, they ended up having to rescind their thoughts on how great they were.

Noah Bolmer:  Before we wrap up, do you have any last advice for expert witnesses or attorneys that are working with experts?

Melissa Smith: Ask questions. Let the other side speak. See what they can educate you on. Make sure it’s not all about them and how great they are. If they’re on their own soapbox and talking about that versus showing you their work and what they’re capable of, take that into consideration. Always make sure they are who they say they are. Not that they’re pretending to have the qualifications that they are being hired for. This came up in one of my last ones where they assumed because he was an advanced level sommelier that was equivalent to a mask- to a wine appraiser. We are being hired to appraise wine. I’ve worked as a restaurant sommelier, but I’ve concentrated my expertise on wine appraisals and legal work. That is what I do. I would not try to- people assume I’m a master sommelier. No, those people are actually crazy with their ability to do what they do. I have different certifications than a restaurant sommelier, that’s focused their career on being a restaurant sommelier. That is why I am at the top of the industry for what I do. I’m not going to pretend to be something I’m not. That’s incredibly important to figure out who your expert is and what their capabilities are so that when they are being grilled in a deposition or on the witness stand, they’ll be able to say what they do with pride, back that up, and not back down from that.

Noah Bolmer:  Sage advice. Ms. Smith, thank you for joining me today.

Melissa Smith: You are welcome. Thank you for having me.

Noah Bolmer: And thank you as always to our listeners for joining us for another edition of Engaging Experts. Cheers.